100 Years After Jim Crow

10/5/2011

A century after the height of the Jim Crow era, we have our first black President. Is a hundred years a long time? Are we where we should be? What has changed, what hasn't? On another front, our military rescinds its policy prohibiting gay soldiers from serving openly. Even moderate, apolitical Americans begin to realize that homophobia is wrong and that LGBT citizens deserve equal protection under the Constitution. Meanwhile, state legislatures all over the country work to enact bans against gay marriage. Is this a backlash that will lose its power in short order, or an ominous sign of entrenched opposition? Elsewhere in the country, Democrats and Republicans alike engage in heated debate about what wealth and poverty mean in our society. Is income level dictated strictly by behavior? Who operates with a greater sense of entitlement, the very rich or the very poor? This conversation has been a long time coming. It's the most explicit challenge to the idea of a national safety net since the New Deal era. People have grown quite comfortable expressing authentic reactions, pro and con, to the idea of social welfare and federal stimulus. Sound bites and judgmental rhetoric are tempting. I'm sure you'll find plenty of them from me on my other blog, Ignite the News. But here I'll try to step back and see the big picture - how we got here and what we most want. We all need to decide what kind of country we want to be.
This is RUCCUS.

28 Comments

Julie Boler link

10/8/2011 05:43:50 am

Question of the day:

Is there a difference between racism on the part of a white person and racism on the part of a person of color?

Greg Dant

10/18/2011 09:02:53 am

I've seen both and it all is rooted in hatred, so I would say no. The bigger and more important question is why do people hate each other?

Julie Boler link

10/18/2011 09:52:06 am

Your comment gave me a lump in my throat. Good question. My best guess has always been that it's about fear - fear of what seems different and strange, fear of competition for limited resources? I don't know.

Greg Dant

10/18/2011 09:58:57 am

Very valid observations, I think, but I still don't understand it. I get so much joy from my many friends and associates of different cultures and races that I just don't "get it" why others don't too. Wouldn't the world be rather dull if we all were the same?

Greg Dant

10/18/2011 10:09:02 am

One other thing. This hatred business is learned behavior and it can start pretty early. My 6 year old great-niece came home from school upset because one of the little boys in her class said that she would be prettier if she had hair like so and so. My niece is mixed-raced with, a beautiful brown skin tone , blue eyes, and an Afro. She is the most beautiful child that you ever saw. I told her perhaps that little boy is jealous because he does not have an Afro! Funny thing is if you put a group of 2 or 3 year olds together, they just see other kids, not a bunch of differences.

Julie Boler link

10/18/2011 12:10:39 pm

I love the "they're just jealous" bit Greg - hope it helped :)!

Art link

10/20/2011 04:12:39 pm

Hope this is not obnoxious to point out, but technically racism is only when the majority or oppressor shows hatred towards the minority. Minorities' hatred is just prejudice. Both are prejudice, but racism has the extra component of the power imbalance. While they are very similar in many respects, there are important differences in how the emotions manifest themselves in action. In other words, the oppressor has more power to harm the minority. And sometimes the prejudice of the minority towards the majority is mostly a reaction against the racism he or she has experienced (though it is an immature and ultimately counter-productive reaction). They are definitely learned behaviors, as is homophobia.

And lest I be accused of being too politically correct, I think that mixing races produces some of the most physically beautiful people. I am a little envious with my pasty white skin.

Oh and I never have understood that kind of hatred. And like you were saying, I don't get why people do not want a diversity of friends in their life. I find it so enriching, but it seems that many, if not most, people seem to seek out groups of people just like themselves to be a part of. It somehow makes them comfortable. I guess if you do that, then you are never challenged with difficult questions (at least in theory).

Oh, and one more thing: fuck.

Art link

10/20/2011 04:19:03 pm

Oh, I had another thing to say. I think the state legislatures now addressing the gay marriage issue are doing so because they see the tide of change and are trying to be some sort of bulwark against it. States also keep passing gay marriage. It may happen soon in Washington. They must know that they are on the losing side of history, but want to make a stand. (fuck)

Julie link

10/21/2011 12:03:48 am

Good fucking morning Art - (you are cracking me up)

Okay, can I just say I am SO glad you made these comments, as I had intended to go back and say something about exactly this idea, and I got distracted by other threads.

When I first posted the question about the differences between racism on the part of one group or another, I intentionally made it wide open, even though I think there's a big difference. Then when Greg posted that they were the same, I was surprised by my reaction - I think it was moving because of how you worded it Greg, they are both rooted in hatred, probably. And fear of the unknown, and a reaction to a perceived threat. And the kind of approach you are talking about, Greg, where you approach your social/emotional life with an openness to all kinds of people is a huge antidote to that fear.

But the power imbalance makes racism a whole different animal coming from a white person. You lay it out beautifully Art. There has never, ever been a time in this country when there hasn't been a significant level of oppression of black people as a race, and until that changes we can't rationally consider them the same. I've always hated the term "reverse racism", as it is a false equivalency. Tim wise, the author I profile on the "Influential People" page (click above) has a lot to say about this topic, centered on the idea that in practical terms there is no comparison, as black people cannot systemically oppress white people in this country at this time.

Greg Dant

10/22/2011 10:04:12 am

I hate to say this, but some people are never going to get beyond their hatred if various groups don't stop pointing out their differences...how they were persecuted, beaten, killed, kept down, victims of a cultural plot, yada, yada, yada. Face it, virtually everyone has had something bad happen to them individually, their ethnic group, their ancestors, etc, etc... and many times for hundreds of years at a time. I mean if we want to go back and look at how the Romans treated our Christian ancestors, I suppose that we could still be wounded by that. Also, why do we hear so much about some people suffering and nothing about others? The Holocaust is a well known story in America, with 6 millions Jews having perished. Did you know that about 20 million Russians perished before and during WWII under old Uncle Joe Stalin? Where are their advocates, their restitution, their justice? I know more than a few people with origins in that society, they did not let it keep them down. America has done more than any country in the history of the world to lift its disadvantaged people up. I recently read that we now have spent upwards of $30 trillion dollars on Lyndon Johnson’s failed war on poverty in America. Social spending currently is at record levels and we also have record numbers of people in poverty. Does this not tell you anything??? Bill Cosby is right in that at some point people have to take personal responsibility and quit blaming their lot in life on everyone except that person in the mirror. I know many educated, successful people of color that simply reject your characterization of the African-American challenge as nothing more than a damaging crutch and I agree with them.

Vincent

10/23/2011 04:07:33 am

Hey my first post, weehoo!

There's an awful lot of good words in this thread and happy to see them. I very much agree that there are differences in races, ethnicities and points of view and these should be celebrated, not feared.
Greg, with respect I do have to take exception to your last.
In many, many ways you're right that each individual is responsible for his or her own fate. But at the same time, we live in a community, and in many, many ways we're all responsible for the fates of each other, in that the fate of all of us is wrapped up in the fate of the individual.
You mentioned groups of Christians, Jews and Russians all being oppressed to the point of slaughter and yes, all those should have their advocates and some do. But there is an extremely demonstrable fact that black people in this country have been consistently, systematically, legally and brutally oppressed by white people in many diverse ways for some 500 years.
It appears quite possible we are coming to grips with this just within the life times of some of those on this thread. I myself have seen great differences from when I was in school in the 60s and 70s to now.
But I think the point others were trying to make centered mostly on a definition that was in place for most of those 500 years. If there are ten of me, and one of you, you cannot relieve me of my rights, my abilities, my livelihood, my family or anything else that makes me human. I could however, rob you of all of that.
And this is exactly what happened over that time.
We have been talking about differences and how they should be celebrated and seem to agree on that. But one thing I think we have to keep in mind is that black people in the Americas still have a road ahead in determining who they are and where they come from. What their heritage is and where their future is.
If I may respectfully use your words, black people have in fact been persecuted, beaten, killed, kept down and been victims of cultural plots, as recently as in my own memory.
How we as white people should respond or help is up to the individual, but I for one would just like to say that when I hear a black person cry out about not being equal, I sure try to understand and keep in mind that there are still a lot of advantages I have for no other reason than the color of my skin.

Greg Dant

10/23/2011 10:12:04 am

Very well stated, Vincent. This is exactly the type of dialog that America needs to have to answer some of the big questions of race. The African-American/black issue is a whole lot more complicated than many would care to believe and becomes even more complicated as the interests of this group become more diverse. Some black people are moving ahead at full speed and others just can't seem to move in any direction. A good friend of mine (who is old enough to have experienced blatant racism and prejudice in the south) and his wife both are very interesting examples of the levels of success now enjoyed by many black people. He was raised in a strong family with his sister. She has a PhD and he has a master’s degree. Their father was not present, but his uncles and grandfather stepped in as his male role models. He attributes their success to their family and to their own sweat and hard work. He rejects the government as any sort of support, except in extreme cases and he frequently points that out. His family simply refused to accept failure from their young people. Those people have more character than nearly anyone I know. His wife's family is very much the same. Her mother passed away this past week at 100 years old. She and her husband were share-croppers in the South, yet raised 12 children to great success. Every single one of the children is a college graduate, most with advanced degrees. Again, it was the strength of character of her parents that made those kids a success. If they accepted any assistance from the government, it was minimal, as they were raised to be self-reliant. I noticed that one trait shared by both families is a deep pride in their self reliance. In fact, beyond that both families have a history of helping others. I don't know how we as a society can help build such family structure when it is not there and perhaps not even wanted. Ideally children need stable mothers and fathers to be successful, I think. Big questions, for sure….

John Locklear

10/23/2011 11:34:34 pm

My thoughtsJulie,
Just an analogy that plays to both sides of some recent post. When people are training elephants to work as beast of burden, they initially use heavy constraints--large chains and shackles--that the young elephants cannot break if and when it tries to escape. The animal is conditioned to the constraints are stronger than itself and eventually stops trying. Later as a adult, the elephants are tethered with only ropes that could easily be snapped, but importantly at this point in time, the elephant doesn't try. Its mind and perception are forever formed. "The ropes keep me here, so why bother".
I said earlier that the analogy works for both arguments. I don't think one needs to see racism to feel, experience it to be affected by it. The only way it would ever be gone is if our history could be erased from all of our minds and in our society everyone given an equal footing.
I get that you're feeling confrontational, but I think that there is some possible validity to the other argument--"the get over yourself" argument. Just like that mighty elephant that doesn't attempt break it's fragile bondage, there are those that will not try due to a "perceived" hand holding them down. I guess the long and short of my feelings are that racism has left its mark, a pockmark, that remains and even though the initial infection is gone. Are there some sites that are still real infections--of course. There will always be bigots and racists. I ask you isn't it possible that the REAL legacy of racism, even if we create a world where there are now no obstacles ever planted for a group, is that they will always believe there are obstacles. When this is mindset is achieved, the group that is in power no longer has to WORK to keep the minorities down, they are quite willing to remain "chained" by their own perceptions.
I hope this was relevant. Just some of my thoughts.

Julie link

10/24/2011 06:13:02 am

Thank you for all these thoughts and ideas everyone. Greg, I had to work hard to separate out my gut reaction to your posts from a more thoughtful one, and I'm not sure I've done it here. I'm going to take a minute to share the gut reaction, and I'll post a better developed response by the end of the week. This is a critical issues to me, and i want to give it the thought and research it deserves, to offer a substantive counter viewpoint to what you've said. That deeper look is what I want to contribute with RUCCUS. I will call your attention to it when I post it. Since i can;t imagine exactly what you think is the "damaging crutch" of my "characterization of the African-American challenge", I will give you my ACTUAL characterization in that post. The only way I have approached race on this particular thread was to ask several questions and say that I thought there was a difference between blacks being racist and whites being racist in this country, due to the existing power imbalance. I'm not sure where the damaging crutch comes in.

In any case, when you first posted on this thread, you said you didn't understand the kind of hatred that is learned behavior on the part of kids. Then with your following posts you answered your own question. It comes from people raising their kids to think it's acceptable to say "yada, yada, yada" about persecution, beatings and murder. I don't know if you raised your own kids hearing you say things like that. But you say it here, so it's in your head, and I think things like that have a way of coming through in general conversation, and kids are all ears, all the time. Your first post on this thread asks, "why do people hate each other?" What's great is that a couple of posts later you are able to clear that up by explaining that people are never going to get over their hatred of black people until black people stop "pointing out their differences". Hopefully your lamentations about people who need to "quit blaming their lot in life on everyone except that person in the mirror" don't come across to your beautiful little biracial niece, causing her to see herself as those mean kids at school see her. When she hears Uncle Greg tell her they are just jealous, but then hears him at the kitchen table grumbling about how "some black people are moving ahead at full speed and others just can't seem to move in any direction" you can't help but wonder how her young mind sorts out these mixed messages. She is going to need you to be more consistent because shit's gonna get real as she grows up. As a white Christian American male, you will never, ever, have any real idea what it's like to walk in her shoes. But you seem to care deeply about her and want her to know she is beautiful, so maybe that will inspire you to reexamine some of these beliefs you have.

What is unmistakable in your comments is that you think poverty is a character flaw. You clearly believe people who are not able to transcend their circumstances are not trying hard enough. You believe if some black people get PhD's, all black people should. You believe, I guess, that the fact that there is a disproportionate number of black people living in poverty is an indication of multiple cases of coincidental, simultaneous failures of personal responsibility. It has to be that, right? It can't be due to environment or discrimination, so if that many black people are barely getting by, they must be afraid of a little hard work, WANT to live off the government, are not willing to look in the mirror, and hey, for them strong family structure is "perhaps not even wanted". (What, really, could you possibly mean by that last one? Who doesn't even want family structure? How does your mind even create that scenario? I don't get it. Because you don't see enough stability in some black families to help ensure their kids' success, you think they must not WANT it?)

How you ever thought about the fact that the same amount of grit, determination, energy, perseverance and self-reliance needed to get your educated neighbors to where they are is sometimes necessary just to survive? The people you see from your car window that look to you like they are living off entitlements and don't care to change it are often employing the same personal traits you say you admire, but believe me it looks different when you DON'T have family support, you live in a neighborhood that is riddled with crime and blight, you don't have enough nutritious food, you have older relatives who can't read or are addicted to drugs and/or alcohol, you have no transportation, you have to take responsibility for siblings, and you have to deal with intensive, daily pressure towards violence, petty crime, and gang activity. If your neighbors grew up in this type of environment then I will bow at their feet. I myself couldn't have done it, I had a hard enough getting to where I am time with a moderate amount of stability and support. But you'

Julie link

10/24/2011 06:22:59 am

've already said they had strong families, so that adds a huge element to the mix. even so, when people make it out of tough circumstances, that is fantastic. But thinking then that those are the folks who are setting the bar for everyone is like thinking that if Ben Roethlisberger can throw like that, there's no reason why Greg Dant shouldn't be able to as well.

If your assumption is that I think the weak-ass public support this country is willing to eke out is gonna save an entire people from this crisis, you are quite wrong, and I promise to include in my new post this week what I think some of the solutions might be. But trust me dude, there isn't a black person in this country that thinks the government is going to come through for them. If that was EVER a hope, it was dashed when the forty acres and a mule didn't materialize. That was a promise made in hopes of leveling the playing field after centuries of slavery - if help was denied in that dire a situation, do you think anyone is counting on enough public support for infrastructure programs to make a dent in the problem? You reference the War on Poverty as a failed program - Greg, the closest this country ever got to making things right for the poor was the Great Society approach by Johnson. Poverty levels went DOWN, health care improved, childhood literacy went up, crime went down, and housing improved. To the extent that a syndrome began to develop in which single mothers found it harder to secure childcare and make enough to survive on when they gave up their welfare benefits, yes, the system was set up to cultivate that kind of "culture of poverty", and it needed fixing - not scrapping! But the response of one Republican president after another, was to capitalize on the same kind of prejudice and distrust that you exhibit in your comments, and create an enduring mythology of the willful welfare cheat, so they could one by one dismantle these programs. It was THEN, my friend, that rates of poverty, crime, gang activity, high school dropout, and drug addiction started to climb, skyrocketing in the eighties and early nineties. It took a Democratic President, Bill Clinton, to step in with ideas for a more constructive welfare reform approach, and he signed in sweeping changes, that gave more control to states, and made it impossible to sit around and have babies and collect checks, although that grand myth lives on. There is so much misinformation out there - you stated that your friend rejects the notion of government support for anything but extreme cases. Well, that's all we have now, and all people really are asking for. What do you think liberals want, exactly? What would be extreme to you? What exactly is your vision of what it would be like to live on $900 a month?

A word on Bill Cosby. Mr. Cosby has a lot of courage, not only because he is outspoken and even confrontational when speaking to black audiences on cultural issues like slang, popular music, and problems like teen pregnancy. He forthrightly challenged parents to guide their kids about these issues, have high expectations and keep them focused on education. But then he also had to the predictable response of people like you, who oversimplify his message and hold him up as the voice of reason in a sea of irresponsibility. Some of his views are problematic to me, but he certainly has a contribution to make. But the thing is, he is in good company in the black community. There is a great tradition of promoting self-reliance, self-determination, and achievement through hard work. It is a message that you hear from preachers, teachers, community activists, black business owners and barbers and day care owners, members of neighborhood associations and black civic groups, political campaigns and youth groups; and importantly, from many, many, many black parents. "You have to do this, because no one is going to do it for you" is a clarion call, and it is downright insulting for you to give that fact such short shrift. You hear it from our President too, Greg. When Obama called a Joint Session of Congress to present the American Jobs Act, you and I discussed it on facebook. You said the speech was better than you thought it would be because he was talking about hard work and personal responsibility so much that you felt like you "could have been listening to a Republican". I just had to shake my head. No, Mr. Obama has ALWAYS talked about that, and so have most if not all black leaders in this country. Did you know that you can do so without pretending you owe nothing to the Civil Rights movement, a la Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain? Since before Obama was running for the White House, he has been known by people who actually listen to him for exhorting black parents to turn off the TV and read books to their kids and help them understand that getting A's in school is not "acting white".

I don't mean to direct all of this at you, Greg, but you said some pret

Julie link

10/24/2011 06:26:42 am

ty glaring stuff here and while you are only sharing your own views, I'm afraid you speak for a lot of others. You are too smart to walk around with these misconceptions. We need you on the side of progress, and if you won't educate yourself about this topic out of compassion you ought to at least do it out of self-interest. Because a better country benefits all of us.

Greg Dant

10/24/2011 07:30:34 am

Well, I do agree with your last sentence! However, I doubt if it is possible for people (such as us) with such great philosophical differences to even agree on what that means. Do you expect me to say, "Gee Julie, I've considered your comments and you know I've decided that you are right. I've seen the error of my ways!" That ain't going to happen, because I am just as passion about what I believe is good for America as you are. Also, please do not place too much emphasis on any single story that I tell here (or anywhere else), especially if it has to do with multi-cultural family members that I mention, because I have more than one or two. You can bet your boots that we try to raise our children with love and acceptance. That means acceptance of differences, not acceptance of failing to try. Again, I am not arrogant enough to think that I know all of the answers for the black community or any other community. You are right in that I have no idea what it is like to be a black person, any more than a black person has any idea what it is like to be a white person or the challenges that go along with that (as if all of our experiences have been identical). So, using your own argument, isn't it equally as flawed for a member of any other ethnic group to make all of these assumptions about the white community, without being a part of it? I will tell you one thing that "people like me" and many of my "white Christian American male" (and female) counterparts are doing what our faith requires of us and that is working with all in need, regardless of cultural differences. Typically, we are doing that with our own resources. I really, really don't think that you know enough about my family, my life, and my experiences to make many of the assumptions and judgments that you make about me. Do you regularly review your own prejudices towards others? I do it in prayer on a regular basis. I don’t need you or anyone to tell me that I am as flawed as any human, but please try to be a little less pious. Finally, Please don’t assume that simply because I failed to write a dissertation on any particular subject, that I gave you every bit of information, thought, comment, etc... A guy just has so many hours in the day.

Greg Dant

10/24/2011 07:41:56 am

Oh, I don't know where you got the idea that I think that poverty is a character flaw. If that is the case then my own family has been full of people with flawed character. What I believe is that failing to try is a character flaw, unless there are truly mitigating circumstances... There is a BIG difference, there! One other thing, you misquoted me as singling out black people in a particular instance above, which I in fact did not do. It is not necessary to insult me to make a point! LOL

Julie link

10/24/2011 09:24:53 am

I don't expect a dissertation by any means - I am lucky enough to have this as a job, and I know you are only commenting on your own time. I appreciate any time you give my website.

But I can only respond to what you write here. Of course it isn't the sum of everything you think and know, I know that. I did not make assumptions here - that is when someone makes a guess about something based on "facts not in evidence" so to speak. I based all of my comments on what you said. If you think I made an error you'll have to be more specific. The one example you are specific about is that I misquoted you as though you had singled out black people in one place where you didn't. I looked back and can't find the specific place, but I'm sure you're right and I apologize for that.

When I said that you think poverty is a character flaw, I should have emphasized that you think STAYING in poverty is a character flaw. Where I got that idea is from the entirety of both of your posts, Greg. They are replete with that message. You say that what you mean is that failing to try is the flaw, but you're just pointing out a rhetorical step I failed to take. If you won't agree that the circumstances faced by most black Americans today are "truly mitigating", and the poverty rate among black Americans is around 27%, then a whole lot of black Americans must be "failing to try" not to be poor.

To break it down to an informal level, you were very straightforward about saying that people need to stop complaining, realize that everyone's got it bad, quit blaming other people for their problems, look in the mirror,and try a little sweat, hard work, self-reliance, and "strength of character". If you take no other point from what I've said, realize that there is so much more sweat, hard work, strength and self-reliance among low-income people than you come close to acknowledging. If you know this Greg, why don't you say it, instead of saying things like "yada yada yada"? If you don't want to be seen as a bigot, don't write like one. Your last two posts on here sound like a different person from the earlier posts. It's interesting. And see, I knew that guy was in there.

I think one big thing I've noticed that you misunderstand about me, and if I may, something conservatives misunderstand about liberals in general, is that we want the government to solve all the country's problems. You still haven't said what you think my "damaging crutch" is, but from the context I guess you mean entitlement programs? Maybe you can clarify. But my feelings are much more complex than that about what needs to happen, which is why I have committed to presenting a better piece by the end of the week explaining some of those views.

Greg Dant

10/24/2011 10:54:10 am

I (and apparently lots of others of various hues) believe that the "damaging crutch" comes in the form of a paternalistic and mis-guided government over-stepping its bounds by doing for people what they generally should be doing for themselves. It gives everyone the idea that the Federal Government can and will be all things to all people. This is not simply about people of color; it is about all people in America. I am sick of self-appointed jerks like Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and others going around making lots of money off of the misery of the poor and minorities. No one will ever convince me that they have anyone's interest at heart but their own. They have a vested interest in keeping poor people down and it is immoral in the worst sort of way. There also are many members of Congress that feed into this same mindset, although it would not be fair or accurate to call them “self-appointed”. If people are uplifted, then all of those leaches lose their audience and they know it. In some respects I have more respect for guys like Malcolm X and Louis Farrakhan, even though I know that we would have many philosophical, political, and theological differences. I believe that we call the above a "definition with details". LOL Oh, I will be very interested to hear the details of your plan to save America or at least to spruce the place up a little, in case we have company... ;-)

Greg Dant

10/24/2011 11:05:29 am

Oh, I also meant to say that you misunderstood if you got the idea that I don't believe that the working poor work hard. My experience has been just the opposite. Typically the working poor do all of the crap work. My own dad always worked 2 or 3 jobs to support his 13 kids. The man was raised in abject poverty in a rural area and only had a 10th grade education. He worked in a factory, a gas station, and a restaurant, amongst other places when we were being raised. Those were all crap jobs... hot, dirty, stressful, and with long hours. I suppose that is one of the reasons that I had so much respect for the man.

Julie link

10/24/2011 12:10:54 pm

Okay, question for all: do you believe there are more unmotivated and undisciplined people to be found in the lowest economic levels of our country than would be found in middle and upper socioeconomic classes?

Greg Dant

10/24/2011 11:51:18 pm

That's what I like best about you Julie...you ask the tough questions. Be warned that these types of questions might get you that dissertation! In this particular case I don't know that I can give you a satisfactory or simple answer. I would never say or even imply that there is one simple reason that people fall into the lower socio-economic levels. There could be a thousand reasons. I do believe that people in the middle and upper socio-economic levels have either been taught or learned that one important piece is to work "smart" as opposed to simply working "hard". My own experience is that economic success takes long hours and typically many years to achieve, even while working "smart". An education makes it easier to work "smart”, but is not an absolute necessity. Also, I know that socio-economic status SOMETIMES has something to do with mindset, but I'm not really sure how that factors in, because it is very difficult to understand or to evaluate. Again, this is an extremely valid question that deserves some thought and discussion. As you probably have surmised from my posts, I am a great proponent of a "hand up" (to able-bodied people) rather than a "hand out". To me the former is very dignified and the later is sort of an insult to the person in need. If we can raise people up, then they can in turn help others and so on and so forth... Man, I feel like a philosopher today! LOL

Greg Dant

10/25/2011 10:35:04 am

I want to make a clarification on the mindset thing, before you start scolding me again. I got that idea from my very best friend of 40 years who died almost exactly a year ago. He was raised in "the hood", as he called it and while every other member of his family moved on to a middle-class (or better) lifestyle, he was always most comfortable in "the hood" with people just getting by. Oddly enough, I always felt very much at home in that environment when I was with him. I was glad that I did not still live in those circumstances, but I understood the draw for him...those were his people. Does that make sense?

Julie link

10/25/2011 12:23:52 pm

Trying to cut back on scolding.

There is a piece of this puzzle that is so overlooked or misunderstood by people who are painting the poor with a broad brush. Not saying that's you, Greg. I notice it in the way a lot of people talk. I just think it's a critical piece, so I'm broaching it.

It has to do with your point about it taking long hours and many years to get ahead, even - as you point out - if you know or have learned how to work smarter.

Instead of over-writing this, as is my wont, I will just ask people to offer any thoughts about this: could a person starting from a place of generational poverty, a collapsed and unsafe community, a negative family structure and exposure to crime, addiction, and deprivation put in that same number of long hours and many years and never make it to even the working- or lower-middle class? Can you imagine that there might be people who live most of their lives in the realm of chronic unemployment and cyclical dependence on government support who actually possess the same grit and mindset used to describe the working poor?

Greg Dant

10/25/2011 01:02:52 pm

Very valid points, Julie. Something else that occurred to me is the depression that many times accompanies what appears to be a hopeless situation. That can cause people a great deal of difficulty that can make it nearly impossible to simply function. That is not a weakness, it is an illness and how do we deal with that? And yes, I could imagine that there are many good and decent people exactly in the circumstances that you describe. The question is...how do we help them beyond that? How do we set them up for success? How do we help them without insulting them? People at a disadvantage are many times insulted by government and other do-gooders who seem to know what is best for them... Again, tough, tough issues with evasive answers. BTW, I love that you are a wordsmith (as I try to be). Once does not often see a word like "wont"...lol I would love to have a private discussion with you about some of the folks that I have worked with over the years. What an education I have received! One thing that I will tell you is that I rarely come away from a situation where I do not receive more grace than those that I try to help. I lead a very blessed life to have so many contacts with so many people with such different circumstances. My mother taught me to love everyone and that is what I try to do. Perhaps the answers to our social problems lie more in converting the hearts of our people than it does in social programs that have dubious results. Can we at least agree on that?

Greg Dant

10/25/2011 01:09:17 pm

One other thing, Julie...I would love to hear any ideas that you have on changing negative family situations. I can tell you from working with so many different families that one does not have to be poor for this to be the case. Also, can you define poor for me from your own perspective? I ask that last question simply out of curiosity, because I wonder if we have very different definitions of what that means...

hentai link

7/11/2012 03:50:17 am

Interesting thoughts, just wanted to mention I came from Google.

100 Years After Jim Crow

Leave a Reply.

Race & Class

Archives

Categories